Interview with Director Werner Herzog - Haaretz
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Renowned German director Werner Herzog and his Israeli-born producer talk about their latest film exploring the human brain, ahead of its screening at the Jerusalem Film Festival
At 80, Werner Herzog, the incomparable filmmaker and writer is still in relentless pursuit of exploring the human condition. Renowned for his sojourns to the furthest corners of the earth, Herzog’s new documentary, “Theater of Thought,” produced by his collaborator, Israeli-born producer Ariel Leon Isacovitch, is no different. Herzog takes us on a unique voyage into the labyrinthine recesses of our own skulls, into one of the final frontiers of knowledge – the human brain.
Along with world-renowned scholar Rafael Yuste, Herzog embarks on a journey, leaping into the unknown, like he has done throughout his career, engaging in a series of interviews with a colorful mix of individuals at the forefront of brain science.
The film features a stop at the IBM headquarters in upstate New York to meet one of the developers of the quantum computer, a visit to a telepathy-enthusiast billionaire, a meeting with a researcher who only agrees to converse on camera after achieving a state of serenity through early morning rowing, the renowned “Man on Wire” high-wire artist Philippe Petit, and one of the people responsible for creating Siri, whom Herzog asks, “How stupid is Siri?”
Ahead of the screening of the film at the Jerusalem Film Festival on July 16, Herzog, along with Ariel Leon Isacovitch, sat down for a Zoom conversation with Haaretz.
“It was one of those projects that almost spontaneously came to life,” Herzog began. “Rafael [Yuste] reached out to me, asking if I would be interested in making a film about the human brain. I was immediately intrigued, as many developments in that field have long held a strong attraction for me.
“The project unfolded rapidly, leaving barely any time for preparation, but Ariel stepped in. He began to organize things. We started on the West Coast, then traveled with a van full of people to the East Coast, followed by some shooting in Germany, and Ariel filmed some segments in Santiago, Chile. It essentially became a road movie,” Herzog explained.
The interest in the movie isn’t due only to the scientific discoveries explored, but also to the spontaneous approach Herzog took, one that led to unexpected and felicitous encounters.
“The real challenge was the risk of creating a movie solely about science. So, we dived deep, enraptured by these fascinating human beings. You naturally want to linger, to extend the movie, to spend more time with them,” Herzog said.
Open gallery view
Bryan Johnson Kernel, left, and Dr. Rafael Yuste in a scene from 'Theater of Thought.'Credit: COURTESY OF SKELLIG ROCK
“Werner didn’t want to meet people in a formal setup,” Isacovitch explained. “It started with one PDF file that was shared during a brief call. Interestingly, more than that, he never prepared a list of questions for them. We would talk a little bit about their backgrounds in the car on our way to meet them, but there was no preparation made beforehand. This resulted in an authentic engagement on camera, creating moments that are truly unrepeatable,” Isacovitch said.
“Apart from Rafael, I did not have extensive personal interaction with any of them before filming. Most encounters lasted no more than an hour, some even half of that.” Herzog explained. “When I met these scientists, I made it clear that they’re talking to a poet, not a journalist. I don’t have a catalog of questions. I just want to bring everyone in on my wild voyage into the unknown,” Herzog said.
The creative partnership between the German-born Herzog and the Israeli-born Isacovitch radiates with mutual respect and shared values. Isacovitch, with his company “The Roots Production Service,” has become Herzog’s regular collaborator. Herzog, with decades of filmmaking experience under his belt, says he recognized a kindred spirit in Ariel, likening his instinctual grasp to a soccer coach spotting a prodigy in mere seconds. “It was immediately clear that Ariel was the person I would love to work with. When you see exceptional talent, you just know,” Herzog said.
Isacovitch’s journey has been circuitous. Soon after leaving Israel following the army, he was involved in a hit-and-run accident that left him in a wheelchair for a year. After a long recovery process, he started his career as a still photographer for feature films in South America. His entrepreneurial spirit led him to establish a company specializing in location scouting, enabling him to engage with individuals from all walks of life across South and Central America.
Herzog and Isacovitch’s relationship began in Chile, during the filming of “Nomad: In the Footsteps of Bruce Chatwin,” and blossomed into a robust partnership that transcends the conventional producer-director relationship and delves into shared values, culture, and life experience. As Ariel put it, “it’s something bigger than only words.”
According to Ariel, Herzog embodies values that promote courage and openness in the face of challenges. “Even if I don’t know something, I find the courage to learn on the go,” Isacovitch said. Their relationship went from a professional collaboration to a meaningful personal connection, which Ariel compares to mentorship. On his part, Herzog was impressed by Isacovitch’s ability for improvisation and flexibility. He recounts a story from his collaborator’s past in which Isacovitch, jobless and new to New York, jumped over the counter in a bagel shop to fix a broken coffee machine out of frustration, eventually becoming the store’s manager.
Isacovitch marvels at the effect Werner has on others, without even knowing them. “My job could have been done for free and by so many volunteers around the world,” he says, “but due to our life experiences, he wants me next to him. As an advisor, friend and a producer, I bring his many latest ideas to life, in his rhythm, which is by far the fastest rhythm of creating that I have seen with my own eyes,” Isacovitch said.
Herzog and Isacovitch appear to share a resemblance with Herzog’s most renowned protagonists, who are often driven to their limits by their intense ideas and passions.
In the film, Herzog engages with individuals who, like him, are preoccupied to the point of obsession with the enigma of the future and our position in it. Through Herzog’s poetic lens, we are presented with a stirring, at some points unnerving exploration of the uncertainties of tomorrow. The film contemplates both the infinite potential and the intrinsic fears associated with the future, highlighting the possible consequences of these obsessions. These include brain chips, brain manipulation and the ability to read thoughts. The film even speculates on the possibility of one day implanting these thoughts.
The politicians and the general public are completely unprepared for what’s coming, Herzog said. “Mind reading, telepathy, restoring sight to the blind, enabling the lame to walk again, these are all possibilities on the horizon. But they come with dangers. What happens if a rogue secret service gets hold of these tools? The situation is analogous to artificial intelligence. While it’s a phenomenal achievement, everyone recognizes its inherent dangers.”
“In the film, it shows a man who is barely able to stand and walk, shaking, with an implant in his brain. A tiny computer under his skull senses the thunderstorm coming and gives impulses to the brain to block the chaos in [his] nervous connections. We do have a right to this, we should have a right if we suffer from certain diseases. And of course, we should have the right to refuse to be implanted [in order] for the Secret Service to know what we are really thinking politically.”
“It’s not only protection against implants, but also shoring up certain rights” that is necessary, said Herzog. “We are now starting to value the great gift of thought freedom. Freedom of speech has been deeply embedded in our civilization as a human right, but now we must protect the freedom and autonomy of thought.”
'We need to define ourselves in relation to the tools we use. What changed in us when the printing press was invented, or when the internet emerged?'
Along with fears about privacy and autonomy of thought, Herzog weaves an underlying cautionary thread about a future so obsessed with deciphering our brains, so enamored with the advances of artificial intelligence that it risks stifling the very faculty that makes us human.
“We need to define ourselves in relation to the tools we use. What changed in us when the printing press was invented, or when the internet emerged? We must understand the tools we use and to what extent we use them. For instance, I’m one of the few people who doesn’t own a cellphone. I choose not to own a cellphone for cultural reasons. I do not want to shape my understanding and perception of the world through cellphone apps. It’s a cultural stance I’ve taken, not born out of nostalgia. We need to delineate how we use these tools, including artificial intelligence. There’s nothing wrong with using an encyclopedia to look up people or events but we must swiftly learn how to relate to artificial intelligence and how it can affect our own brains and their functions,” Herzog elaborated.
For Isacovitch, the screening of the film at the Jerusalem Film Festival combines for the first time “my origins in Israel, my unlimited love for Israel, and my work alongside my friend and colleague Werner Herzog.”
Herzog’s relentless creativity and productivity are awe-inspiring. Despite the challenges posed by the COVID-19 pandemic, Herzog managed to complete two films, including “Theater of Thought,” and authored two books during this period. And Herzog and Isacovitch aren’t stopping, with two new films in the works.
“We observe with fascination what is coming at us and what’s already there. It’s important to show it, to start a discourse and ignite people’s imagination. How do we deal with it? How can we utilize the results we already have? I’m glad that the film is being shown; it serves as a starting point for these discussions.”
Perhaps the reason for this breakneck speed of productivity and creativity is, as shown in the movie, Herzog’s weariness about giving predictions, assuming outcomes and judging prematurely. Instead, he observes with abundant curiosity, unafraid to ask questions, and lets the people obsessed with these ideas speak for themselves.
In one scene, Herzog interviews Cori Bargmann, a world-renowned expert in neural circuits, and her husband, Richard Axel, who received the Nobel Prize for decoding the sense of smell. Initially, Herzog inquires about their research, but gradually steers the conversation towards more abstract topics.
They discuss the profound impact of music on human emotions and share a fascinating anecdote about explorer Von Humboldt’s discovery of a parrot in the depths of the South American jungle that could speak 60 words of a dead language. When Herzog further hypothesizes, pondering what might occur if this parrot were to teach the language to another parrot, he delves into their personal relationship as husband and wife, exploring the unique dynamics between them.
“When I saw them both walking towards us in the park, hand in hand, their mannerisms, the way they connected with each other, I knew it was something special. A truly wonderful couple. And out of nowhere, in the middle of nowhere, I asked them, ‘Is it good for your marriage that you don’t talk about science at the dinner table?’ It’s a question that nobody would dare to ask Nobel Prize winners. But in that moment, the confession of being husband and wife became so evident, the intimate smile, awkward laugh, revealing the true essence of human connection,” Herzog said.
In this movie, Herzog once again transcends the science and innovations, delving deep into the captivating world of research to try to discover how the brain functions and all the possibilities of a future unknown, but in the process also revealing the essence of our humanity.